posted February 12, 2003 01:20 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dnewton:
DStepp:
[QUOTE]Bob Greenberger is here to give us what insight he can into the Collected Edition publishing schedule. He is not here to defend DC's publishing policies to you or anyone else nor is here to be held accountable for titles you like that no one else does. Please try to conduct yourself in a manner consistent with others you see on this board.

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[/QUOTE]

Well, honestly, it's not Bob's job to help with this. It doesn't matter whether he wants them to fail or not. His job is to determine what TPBs or HCs will make the most money possible for DC Comics Inc. The Power Company is not hot enough to make money. End of story. He has already said this. I really wish everyone would simply drop the whole Power Company thing. Can we please move on?

As for putting previews in other TPBs to lure those readers, again, not his job. He is not in DC's advertising department, and trying to save a monthly that's not doing so hot, sales wise, is not his responsibility. Over the years, there have been dozens of great titles DC has tried out that have gotten cancelled within a year or two. This may well be the next. No shame in that. If you want to save this title, fine. But this is not the place for it. And that's all I'll say on the matter.

posted February 12, 2003 02:04 PM               

Bob,

Am I reading the above posts correctly that there are no new non-superhero archives in the immediate plan.

Also, how much consideration has been given to collecting more obscure characters into a lost annual format (like...say...Zatara, Slam Bradley, The Losers, The Black Pirate, etc.).

posted February 12, 2003 02:23 PM               

You misread me supe, i never said final night is still in print, just that it couldnt have gone out too long ago, as it was still around less than 2 yrs ago. Zero hour, on the other hand (which i wouldve ordered over final night) has been out of print ever since i returned to comics i belive, which is at least 4 yrs.

sam- Wow, i missed that bob comment somehow, yet i saw his following paragraph on final night. Weird.

Anyway, thats good news, but i truly hope that its done extremely well, after all i was very disappointed by no batman 604 in a m/f trade, no tec 742 in evolution, and no collection of certain nml arcs like the code. Omissions from tpbs sting me a lot more than no tpbs, b/c i know with no tpb, theres a possibility of it coming much later (bat example- strange apparitions, and there are other dcu examples). When theres an omission, its a lot harder to repair, especially if those tpbs are always kept in print. If it goes out of print, it can always come back in a different form (example- batman y2, which came back including full circle, and while i wasnt a huge fan of y2, i applaud including full circle, which i never read, and i plan to buy this edition eventually, assuming it doesnt go out of print before i get to it), but if it stays in print, then its almost irreperable.

If evolution was never reprinted, i could know that one day, ppl will look back on ruckas run like they do on engleharts, so maybe well see something like strange apparitions. These omissions especially bother me b/c of how small they are, and how close a full reprint would be. I have no problem if something like tec #642 is not reprinted, b/c nothing from around that period is. When tec #742 isnt reprinted, however, its an one issue omission where 19/21 tec issues in that period are reprinted (730-736,737-741,743-750). Not to mention its a pretty relevant issue, as its really the only issue out there which deals with gordon dealing with his wife's death post nml.

posted February 12, 2003 02:39 PM               

Oh, and samdhi, about batgirl, i think that dc could include that ish in both a m/f trade AND a batgirl trade.

Not sure if dc has ever done anything similar with a contemporary trade, but i know a bunch of storis from batman in the 50s, 60s, and 70,s overlap with stories from the greatest batman stories ever told, and those tpb's should have the same readership (pre crisis and golden and silver age fans), so im sure dc could have printed 50's 60's and 70's w/o any stories from greatest bat stories.

posted February 12, 2003 03:40 PM               

If i may, i'd like to throw out my initial suggestion, followed by why i believe it could make the best choice (assuming that the considerations are for a post nml tpb)

My suggestion is to reprint Gotham Knights #1-11, as well as the mr zsasz story which never saw print, but was meant for #12. Reasons this could make a god choice;

-Firstly, it reprints the opening issues of an ongoing series, and everything from batman, sotb, lodk, batman adventures, robin, nightwing, bg, bop, and cw (2nd) have had at least their first 4 issues reprinted.

-Next, rucka already has a collection in evolution, and while id like a second collection, that would come later, and grayson has more of a name to bat tpb fans than brubaker. The solicitation can have something like "devin grayson, who along with greg rucka, was a driving force behind the acclaimed nml arc, and current writer of nightwing, pens the first new batman monthly in over a decade, focusing on batmans relatonships with his family..."

-It would reprint the hardest to find batman issues of the recent past, a claim made based on personal experience. I wasnt buying the montlies from early 2000-early 2001, and i tracked down nearly every ish of bat and 'tec, but many gk issues went unfound. This makes sense, as gk has less orders than bat and 'tec, so therefore less issues to find. It particular, the 4 part hugo strange arc which would close this collection, after 4 stores and i convention, i was only able to track down 1 copy of one issue of the four.

-It includes the only hugo strange arc of modern times as far as i know, and some bat buffs who no longer are into the montlies might be intigued. He is the oldest bat rogue (batman #1 along with joker and catwoman) and played a role in the popular strange apparitions, and many, many fans today (based on what ive seen on the bm mbs)are fans through the animated series. Hugo strange appeard in the series, but to those fans from the series, followign the tpbs, they havent seen hugo unless in strange apparitions or the out of print lodk tpb "prey"

-The 4 part hugo strange arc id like to believe is pivotal, but i wouldnt know as i only own one part. What i do know is that the hugo strange situation is what led to batman getting a bodyguard (and in the 2nd rucka trade, optimism i know, lets pray it could happen, when lucius refers to the hugo strange icident, just as the montly would have *see gk #8-11 ed. in a little box, the tpb would have *see batman visionaries, devin grayson, and also another way around this, like i mentioned earlier, in addition to the character bio page, have one page if you missed like i noticed in ultimate dd, ill talk more on this later).

In addition to the hugo strange incident leading to lucius forcing a bodyguard, it introed bruce's journal, which was a recuring theme for the first 7 issues of gk, and became a piece of evidence in m/f. It also led to some type of strain with the bat family i believe (evidence in gk 15) and i belive helped lead to dicks adoption. All of this would be seen in the second grayson trade (optimism again), and all of which came to a head in m/f.

-Even if no follwup grayson trade would be planned, i dont believe the issues raised in this one require a sequel, so that wouldnt be a woorry. Its more like, more happened later, but you wouldnt know that from this. Sort of like watching the first 2 hours of spielbergs a.i., were if the movie ended there, no one would suspect theres another 30 minutes.

-The inclusion of the grayson story which never saw print would be a huge selling point. People are hugely attracted to things which were never allowed to see print, and i can see the solicitation now; "As a special bonus, in addition to including the first 11 issues of gk, this tpb also includes the never before seen mr zsasz story grayson penned for gk #12, but was deemed to violent and never saw print.

posted February 12, 2003 04:33 PM               

-NML vol 1 was the 2nd highest ordered dc tpb that month, behing gon underground (which, at 7.95, the nml tpb was priced 62.5% higher, or $5 higher)

-Vol 2 was the highest ordered dc tpb of the month.

-Vol 3 was the 2nd highest ordered dc tpb of the month (behind jla: heaven's ladder, which was $3 cheaper)

Vol 4 was the 2nd highest ordered dc tpb of the month (behing grant morrison/Frank Quitely's jla: earth 2 sc, and thats a hot team on a hot book that features all the major guns)

Vol 5 was the highest ordered dc tpb of the month.

When previews stopped listing backlists for some month's replaced by top 50 tpb's based on sales, the five nml tpbs have consistenly been among the top 50 back ordered items. Would all of this significantly had changed with 6 volumes, which would have made for a complete collection? I dont belive so. And then youve got the new ppl, who literally every 2-4 wks pop up on the bat boards asking for a nml checklist since the tpbs dont cover everything and everything's what they want.

Then, to follow up nml, batman: evolution was released (and very boneheadingly left out tec #742), and that was the ninth highest ordered tpb of the month (all companies, including marvel, dark horse, image) Does that make it a loser? I dont know. I dont really think something could be among the 10 highest ordered tpb's and be a loser, if that were the case, that means only 8 or less profitable tpb's are released a month. If i was dc id continue the nml momentum (after SIX tpbs) and released additional rucka trades, as well as grayson and brubaker (larry hamas short batman run, which i own, obviously would not be collected), leading into m/f, so that the tpbs readers would be salivating heading into m/f like im sure the monthly readers were, b/c theyd know about vesper, sasha, the alienation of allies, the gun bruce bought, etc. Instead, the tpb readers go into m/f simply knowing what the solicit told them, bruce is framed for murder. I think dc dropped the ball on regular tpb's, and has foregone potential profit making revenue. If its too hard to figure out how to organize the tpb's hire me, ill at least try very very hard, and i dont think its that hard either, jsut the tpb team doesnt follow the monthlies (#604 was accidentally left out of a m/f trade??? are you kidding me, its their job to make sure good stuff make it). It's a bit harder to make things up now (id think a lot harder), as with loeb/lee's hush, the readers are being spoiled with instant gratification, so theyd be unused to the slow build grayson, rucka, and brubaker employed in their run's.

posted February 12, 2003 04:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by gothcityfan:
Anyway, thats good news, but i truly hope that its done extremely well, after all i was very disappointed by no batman 604 in a m/f trade, no tec 742 in evolution, and no collection of certain nml arcs like the code. Omissions from tpbs sting me a lot more than no tpbs

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We're in definite agreement about BATMAN # 604. Its omission was, for me, an enormous disapointment, so much so I figured it was worth the Hail Mary for Vol. 3. On the other hand, I'm thrilled that the Azrael-related thread got cut. Some omissions aren't so bad!

quote:

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Originally posted by gothcityfan:
My suggestion is to reprint Gotham Knights #1-11, as well as the mr zsasz story which never saw print, but was meant for #12.

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That sounds a bit cumbersome for a single volume to me. Assuming they reprint anything from GOTHAM KNIGHTS, I think they'd be more likely to collect, say, # 1-7, although I'd personally be much more interested in # 8-"12" myself. Can't get enough Hugo Strange in print, as far as I'm concerned. *cough*LOTDK # 137-41*cough* And I agree about the selling point of including a "lost" issue.

posted February 12, 2003 04:55 PM               

Whereas rucka spent his time on a slow build of how batman has always been psycholigally unable to maintain normal relationships, leading to his eventual realization in tec #775 (ruckas last ish) that he should change, and brubaker spent his time leading into fugitive with bruce losing sight of his identity, Loeb just jumps right into everything. He gets 12 issues, and he throws out a batman-superman fight, a catwoman-batman relationship, a batman-joker pivotal confrontation, etc.

While i think loebs an excellent writer, i also think brubaker/rucka are also excellent. But once the casual fan who only gets some tpbs tries hush, if he comes across a brubaker/rucka tpb, hell ask himself "where's the relationship with catwoman, wheres the brawl with supes, wheres the ultimae joker confrontation?" They will be conditioned to expect stories of loeb's caliber, and wont get rucka/brubaker.

posted February 12, 2003 04:59 PM               

2) Are there any plans to reprint the early issues of the Wally West Flash seres? I loved those early issues that were drawn by Jackson Guice and written by Mike Baron (I think)? I got hooked onto the series when it first started, and I remember when issue 4 came out, already an annual (by Baron & Guice) was published at that time because the series was that strong in popularity. I think a collection of those early Flash issues would be great.

posted February 12, 2003 05:21 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by superboy1988-92:
Great to hear that the Zero Hour: Crisis in Time TPB is coming back to print, as well as the two old Justice League International TPBs. DC really maintains the high standard of bringing out of print books to be available once again.

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posted February 12, 2003 06:09 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by samdhi:
That sounds a bit cumbersome for a single volume to me. Assuming they reprint anything from GOTHAM KNIGHTS, I think they'd be more likely to collect, say, # 1-7, although I'd personally be much more interested in # 8-"12" myself. Can't get enough Hugo Strange in print, as far as I'm concerned. *cough*LOTDK # 137-41*cough* And I agree about the selling point of including a "lost" issue.

---

Maybe the way to go is to leave out the two-part Samsara (sp?) story, which didn't have a whole lot to do with overall theme of that first year, if I recall right.

That gets us down to 9 issues, if the "lost" issue deal is nixed, and somehow I have the feeling we'll never see that one in any form.

posted February 12, 2003 06:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by samdhi:

That sounds a bit cumbersome for a single volume to me. Assuming they reprint anything from GOTHAM KNIGHTS, I think they'd be more likely to collect, say, # 1-7, although I'd personally be much more interested in # 8-"12" myself. Can't get enough Hugo Strange in print, as far as I'm concerned. *cough*LOTDK # 137-41*cough* And I agree about the selling point of including a "lost" issue.

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I agree, but actually i was thinking of the sucess of the Ultimate spiderman (reprints #1-13), ultimate xmen (1-12), and ultimate marvel team up (1-15) collections when making my suggestion. And just like those contain dvd type extras, in this case itd be the "lost" story.

The only difference being, of course, those are hc's this would be a sc (since i cant imagine dc banking on a hc for this).

But this size for a sc is hardly undoable, although the snag being that all the other cases where its been done that i could think of were reprints of hugely popular works (tlh, dv, quiver, return of superman, crisis, jla y1 for example). The same obviously cant be said for this.

A second greg rucka tpb would be great, probably better, and i enjoyed rucka more than grayson, but another reason i suggested this first is that if this were to happen, it sets a good path, and a rucka tpb could prob follow. If they go with rucka first (and i think they will) its less likely theyll go back and reprint grayson.

posted February 12, 2003 07:30 PM            

I don't know whether these have been requested but:

(Serious tone): Can we have a ROBIN archive (from Star-Spangled Comics) please?

(Not so serious): I'd like to see a trade paperback of Mr and Mrs. Superman. This isn't going to happen, is it?

posted February 12, 2003 08:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by morpheus27@aol.com:
could you at least twist Mr. McCloud's arm to get back to doing this series, even for a little while, instead of doing Understanding Comics Part 3 or another Abraham Lincoln graphic novel?

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posted February 12, 2003 08:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by gothcityfan:
I agree, but actually i was thinking of the sucess of the Ultimate spiderman (reprints #1-13), ultimate xmen (1-12), and ultimate marvel team up (1-15) collections when making my suggestion. And just like those contain dvd type extras, in this case itd be the "lost" story.

The only difference being, of course, those are hc's this would be a sc (since i cant imagine dc banking on a hc for this).

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It's also worth noting that each of those Marvel hardcovers collects items that were originally collected in more than one TPB volume, e.g., ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN Vol. 1 (# 1-7) and Vol. 2 (# 8-13).

Rusty Shackleford's idea sounds like an interesting way to eek out a single volume, if push comes to shove. (Of course, we don't even know it's come to push yet!)

quote:

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Originally posted by gothcityfan:
But this size for a sc is hardly undoable, although the snag being that all the other cases where its been done that i could think of were reprints of hugely popular works (tlh, dv, quiver, return of superman, crisis, jla y1 for example). The same obviously cant be said for this.

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posted February 12, 2003 08:33 PM               

A certain poster there (mirrorball man), whom i agree with to an extent posted; "I don't think they really understand what a TPB is supposed to be."

After traik posted TRaik:
"Myself, I generally hold to the basic definition of "TPB," which really speaks only to format and not to content. That is: a "trade paperback" is nothing less and nothing more than a softcover book format sold and marketed to the traditional book market."

To which mirrorball man responded; "That's right, and because trade paperbacks are books, and are sold in bookstores, it comes with some expectations attached. When they buy a trade paperback, people expect to get either a full story, or one small installment in a longer story.

This Supergirl trade we're talking about is neither. It's the final installment in the series, and should the reader want to read the episodes that lead to this final story, they would have to switch to a different format, and hunt down pamphlets.

This is not what's supposed to happen with books. If you buy a Star Wars book, it will either be a standalone story, or one novel in a long series of novels. But it will not be the final episode in an epic saga that has been exclusively published in magazines up to this point."

I bring this up because its a more eloquent version of my issue. While i disagree about the supergirl tpb, as supergirls tpbs were deemed to low for a tpb, and this final arc is both a good seller and said to stand alone, i cant see why this is a bad thing.

Mirrorball's sentiments exactly mirror why i disagree with the notion of no bat tpb's. Comics have evolved and its not the days of old where the comic would go from batman vs riddler, followed by batman vs two face, followed by standalone bat story. Nowadays, they really are long running stories, and the practice of reprinting the arc and the arcs alone gives a very fragmented view of the story, especially in the case of m/f, as i mentioned many times.

A later poster there (brian wink) responded to mirrorball on the tpb issue; "You and me both. It's why I've wound up buying a lot more Marvel product over the last year than DC."

Not sure what issue he has with the dc tpb system. The quick tpb release system of marvel i still disagree with, until its been around awhile and we can reasonably say it works in all aspects. What i do like about marvel's system, however, is that we can be reasonably secure that a whole stroy will be reprinted, and i admit, despite 95% of my collection (apox. 20 boxes worth) being dc, ive been hgreatly enticed to drop dc and go to marvel tpb reading. I enjoy tpb's as i mentioned earlier, and i know with marvels current policy, i can get a complete series of hulk, or ultimate x-men, etc. With dc, i cant drop the monthlies (which im tortured to keep up with) b/c i cant feel the same reliability from dc. The only thing keeping me on baord beside my loyalty to the dc brand is my love of dc. Ill continue holding on, but you never know... Vertigo is a great example of full stories being reprinted over at dc.

When a writer takes over a title, they have a vision of what theyd like to do. Greg Rucka had his vision of batman. Check out the comic news site with their creator interviews. They speak of their goals for the character, what theyd like to do, what they like to accomplish. Im sure greg rucka had such interviews. The vision is not transferred to the reader purely through a crossover like m/f. If anything, greg rucka was not a fan of the crossover, and felt it hindered his vision. What do we get collected though? The crossover, because its a gimmick and therefore sold better in the monthlies and will do so in tpb form. That is why i disagree with the batman reprint policy. The other dcu titles seem to have a much better track record though. Jla and jsa have everything reprinted. Same for nw, bg, cw, and ga so far. Geoff Johns flash and judd winnicks gl have had practically everything repritned as well i believe. Batman, no, and unlike superman, his titles were never linked, and his creators have a clear vision, making way for what would not be difficult trades. Superman would probably be difficult, unless dc one day cuts him to only one or two titles, or the linking is absolved long term, the writers develop their own visions, and successfully put them into print in stories that are well recieved. You cant say that for recent superman, when his own message board's posters have ideas on saving superman. On the bat board's however, everyone around before hush had extraordinary praise for rucka, brubaker, and grayson. Unfortunately, the huge (and growing) number of fans who follow tpb's get a hideous distorted view of these writers visions. Every poster coming from the m/f tpbs is confused, and im not sure they even truly understand the development which led to the story.

THis isnt the tpb divisons deal, but organize potential crossovers better or do away with them (fugitive was an organizational mess). TPB division, learn how to live with the crossovers, as well as how to reprint characters popular enough to sustain multiple titles. Dont use these reasons as a crutch to limit the number of tpb's the more popular characters receive, thereby punishing them when it comes to tpb's simply because its not as cut and dry to organize the tpb's as for someone with one title, like flash.

posted February 12, 2003 09:42 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by samdhi:
It's also worth noting that each of those Marvel hardcovers collects items that were originally collected in more than one TPB volume, e.g., ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN Vol. 1 (# 1-7) and Vol. 2 (# 8-13).

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Oh, yea, i understand that, im just not sure if in separating the first yr of gk, the first 7 issues would be able to stand on their own and warrant a tpb.

Also, since the first 11 issues are in actuality one long story (or recuring theme), which goes together, it would be nice to be kept together.

Also, i think its more marketable for the zsasz lost story in a larger collection, as then itd feel more like a special tpb (i can see the solicit now; "not only includes the first yr of gk, but a special never before seen print story") Would all the extras of the ultimate spidy hc have felt more natural if they were included in the first tpb? I think the separate spidey tpbs were like a dvd, and the hc was like a "special edition" dvd.

The zsasz issue would be a huge selling point imo, and could dramatically increase sales. What could be so violent so as to keep it under wraps forever? Ed Brubaker, in catwoman, tortures a character, has the character's eye cut out, and then forcibly fed to the character's significant other.

As for it being a selling point, just check out how many bat fans cried on the hush hc topic, and considered shelling out $25 for FOUR extra pages. Also, many raised the same issue on b & w volume 2, whetehr the 5 additional stories would make the monthly, as they collect the monthly and didnt want to buy the hc for 40 pages. Thats consideration of two pricey hardcovers for four and forty extra pages respectively, the former of which are incosequential pages. The zsasz story, would be intriguing to many.

One more reason id prefer one volume is that my suggesion is based on the pipe dream of dc one day sytematically reprinted of rucka/brubaker/grayson 2000-2001 stories leading into m/f. In this dream scenario, i think dc would be more likely to do this with less trades. 2-3 trades per writer is possible if larger trades were enforced. Smaller trades would require 4-5 per writer. If this scenario ever came down, my dream world can see 6 huge tpbs (1 per writer per year), as opposed to 12 or more.

But anyway, dc has no plans to go into reprints of the stuff that led to m/f (and i speculated in an above post why the consumer could poorly recieve this today, and it may be a lost opportunity which should have been taken advantage of before m/f or hush tpbs were ever released)

I guess if it were to ever be considered, 1-7 and 8-12 could make separate collections (although id like for them to be planned simultaneously, b/c the first collection is a pretty useless bunch of stories w/o the second). Especially since 7 has a great story which could wonderfully end a tpb. To refresh the gk stories

Ish 1- Batman investigates murders of a youngs boys parents, feeling a kinship. Robin nightwing think bats loses his objectivity here.

2- Batgirl saving captives on ship, almost drowning, bats forcing her to save herself

3-4- two part samsara story

5- key mind controlling batman, trying to get him to kill. Nightwing and azrael trying to prevent it.

6- The re-retcon of oracle back into being gordons daughter.

7-Leslie thompkins story, full of flashbacks into leslies key never before seen moments in bat history (first leslie treating bat wound, first leslie showing affection for alfred, les reaction to injured huntress with nw by her side after nml, which would have played so much more nicely if this proposed tpb would have been released in the same time period of evolution, when nml was still fresh in the mind of tpb reader, oh well, lost opportunities which cant be recouped)

posted February 12, 2003 10:15 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by superstar:
I thought the title of this thread was "Questions for Bob Greenberger."

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I thought the first thread had almost lost it's usefullness when people started coming on and writing something along the lines of "I don't really want to read through this entire thread, so I will ask my question even if you've already answered it three times before."

This recent nonsense has put a stake through this thread's heart. I'm just glad Mr. Greenberger has the patience to wade through all the ignorance, resentment, and bitterness to answer the real questions. I would have been long gone by now if I were him...

posted February 12, 2003 10:22 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by BillNolan:
I thought the first thread had almost lost it's usefullness when people started coming on and writing something along the lines of "I don't really want to read through this entire thread, so I will ask my question even if you've already answered it three times before."

This recent nonsense has put a stake through this thread's heart. I'm just glad Mr. Greenberger has the patience to wade through all the ignorance, resentment, and bitterness to answer the real questions. I would have been long gone by now if I were him...

- Bill

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As would I. Bob's patience with some of the nitwits on this thread sets him apart as a prince among men.

In all sincerity, Bob, thanks.

posted February 12, 2003 11:18 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by superstar:
I thought the title of this thread was "Questions for Bob Greenberger."

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I asked bob a question, he answered, i disagreed, and posted many points for why i feel bob's stance was incorrect. I admit i posted too many cases for my argument, but nothing i can do about that now.

If i just sheepishly accepted bobs answer, with no discussion, this thread would basically be a previews thread.

Q: Hey bob, any plans for _______
A: Why no q, there are no current plans for ______.
Q: Why thanks bob.

as opposed to...
Q: Well you know bob, i dont see what the basis is that ______ should not be reprinted. Its been shown that ______ is one of your most popular characters, and many lesser characters have reprints.

It seems you folks would just prefer this thread be a question-answer session about what there is and isnt plans for. Whoop-de-do, im sorry if i feel a discussion could serve more purpose.

posted February 12, 2003 11:42 PM               

Otherwise, this thread works best when it's strictly "Questions for Bob G" as the subject says. We ask questions, we get answers, and a little banter ensues, and the true essence of this thread is manifested. That should make everyone content.

I have no problems with the substance of these Bat-posts, but even gothcityfan admits he got carried away with the discourse, especially in terms of sheer volume. No harm, no foul.

Good morning, Bob! Have you had your coffee yet?